BRYAN:

Onggie, kung napansin mo, sa mga previous episodes natin sa Gubatbp. podcast, mga pinaguusapan natin ay how nature has been represented sa mga iba ibang mediums like literature, paintings, and even hobbies ng mga plantito/plantita phenomenon and yung kagustuhan natin sa paginom ng kape kahit mainit sa Pilipinas.

This time, maybe we can delve into a broader way of looking at things. “Broad” in a sense na it manages to encapsulate yung details ng entire areas or ideas through a visual representation.

ONGGIE:

What might that visual representation be?

BRYAN:

Maps—or “mapa”! In this episode ng Gubatbp., we’ll be looking at how cartographers and map-makers have come to know yung land by drawing out (literally) yung shared characteristics ng lived spaces natin.

Helping us become more familiar with this charted territory—or should I say, some of them are still “uncharted”—is Ony Martinez, an Assistant Professor at the Department of Geography, University of the Philippines Diliman. She’s a member of Philippine Geographical Society and part of independent research and advocacy group Counter-mapping PH Network. She has also joined Saan Yan PH, a volunteer group on mapping community pantries in the country.

Thanks for joining us today, Ony!

ONY:

Hi Onggie and Bryan! Ako ang fortunate at masaya ako na nainbitahan ako para sa podcast natin ngayon.

BRYAN:

Very, very excited kami sa episode na ito at mas malaman pa from you about yung topic natin today on maps and mapping.

ONGGIE:

Ngayong hapon nakakatuwa na we have Prof Ony Martinez with us, or Ony, as she likes to be called. Kasi marami akong tanong sa maps ang mapping. I don’t even know kung ano ba yung…kasi binanggit kanina ni Bryan na ang tawag ko doon sa illustration at the start of books ay “mapa” but I don’t know kung illustration lang yun.

Para maliwanagan din ako, what’s a map? What makes a map a “map” and ano yung different kinds of maps?

ONY:

Onggie, ang mapa kadalasan kung titingnan natin sa mga references at textbooks on GIS, cartography…kadalasan ay it’s described as a two-dimensional representation of a part of the earth, whole earth. 

Tinitingnan natin ito sa planimetric model. Ibig sabihin, flat or two-dimensional representation. As if anywhere ka tumingin sa mapa it’s as if you’re looking straight down from an overhead perspective and yan yung pagkakaiba niya siguro sa mga dinodrawing natin nung bata diba? Yung mga landscape…kasi nung nagdrawing ako noon syempre may araw, may farmland, may tree.

Kadalasan, kapag tinitingnan natin yung pormal na pag aaral ng mapa or cartography, hindi natin sinasabi na mapa yun kasi unang una, hindi siya scaled. Ibig sabihin, maaring nagiiba-iba yung area or dimensions doon sa dinrawing mong mapa kasi ikaw yung nag drawing. Ibig sabihin, base siya sa pagkaunawa mo sa space. Kung ano yung mental map mo of a particular area. 

Pero arguably, pwede talaga natin ito tawagin na mapa. Kung lalabas tayo doon sa limitadong definition ng kung ano yung mapa or ano yung capability ng mapa, na-express natin yung ating spatial knowledge or kung ano yung nalalaman natin. Karanasan natin doon sa lugar at kung paano tayo nakikipag-interact. Ang mundo natin ay lugar kung saan meron tayong social encounters sa ibang tao at sa ibang tao sa community kakilala man natin or hindi. These are very interesting interactions kasi ito yung nagpapakulay ng buhay natin.

Gusto nating makalabas din sa ganyang limitadong definition ng mapa at sabihin na, “Well, totoo din naman na ang mga mapa may consistency in terms of the scale na yun din yung nakikita natin sa actual world. Ganun din natin siya makikita sa mapa, lumiit lang kasi nga rine-scale natin yung malaking mundo sa mas maliit na representation nga.” Pero gusto din natin sabihin na may buhay din yung mapa.

Tingnan din natin ang West Philippine Sea issue, yung mga old maps nabuhay sila. Para silang may buhay na sarili kahit ilan daang taon ang natapos pagkatapos ng kung kelan silang unang nalimbag. 

Reflection din siya sa kung ano yung ating world-view, ano yung ating karanasan, environment at a particular point in time. Kung tatanungin ako kung ano yung mapa para sa akin, ang tingin ko sa kanya, ito yung link na tinanong ng ating kaisipan, experience, the way we think about space at yung pangaraw-araw natin na social encounters na nararanasan.

Ito ay naglalaman nang: at a particular point in time, ano yung interest natin? Ano yung pinagiisipan natin tungkol sa ating environment? Paano tayo gumagalaw across space?

Nililikha natin ito kasi ang interes natin or ang goal natin ay maibahagi din sa iba kung ano yung alam natin tungkol sa space at kung ano din yung sa tingin natin, yung mga mahalaga na elements sa ating environment that we think are important to us in many respects. Pwedeng dahil ginagamit natin sila as part ng resource pool natin sa pangaraw-araw. Pwede din naman na nagmamapa tayo ng issues tungkol sa space. Halimbawa, contested space.

Sa amin, madalas namin naririnig yung kunyari sa Caratig lugar man. Alam natin na ang mapa ay very useful din sa ganyang klaseng usapin. Malawak kasi ang sakop. Very broad yung pwede nating ma-express na information or message through maps.

ONGGIE:

Ang dami kong natutunan doon sa unang pagbabahagi palang ni Ony. Salamat sa pagbabahagi. Just for a little bit, ano yung ginagawa mo bilang cartographer at isang spatial analyst? Can you tell us a little bit more? Ano yung maps that you create, what sort of maps yung kayang gawin ng isang cartographer or isang spatial analyst? Or spasyal analyst ba dapat?

ONY:

Nakakatuwa yung story ko kung paano ako napunta sa field na ito kasi hindi ko siya inaasahan. Nung time nung ako ay college student na hindi ko rin babanggitin kung kailan…yung time na iyon, hindi pa masyadong naririnig yung salita na GIS, spatial analyst…ganyang klaseng mga skills. 

In fact, sa Geography, kung saan ako nanggaling, napaka-konti lang ng batch namin. Pito lang kaming freshies, nabawasan pa. Dalawa lang yung natira pagkatapos ng apat na taon sa kolehiyo. 

Hindi kami kilalang kurso at very fortunate din ako na pagka-graduate ko ay mga anthropologist ang aking nakasama sa trabaho. Talagang naghanap sila ng geographer. Yung yung pinaka-interesting na bahagi dun: naghanap ng geographer. 

Kasi wala ngang nakakaalam sa kurso namin, pero college palang ako, meron isang department sa UP⏤sa Geodetic Engineering department⏤meron kaming kurso na pwedeng kunin doon kasi wala pa sa kurso namin yung ganung klaseng mga subjects. Tungkol ito sa remote sensing. Alam ko na yung remote sensing ay tungkol sa satellite images and photos, so alam ko na related siya sa geography dahil sa mapa.

Sabi ko nakakatuwa naman, subukan ko naman mag-enroll. Doon ko nakita yung capability ng computer software na pwede pala mag-mapa kahit wala ako sa lugar. Kasi yung aerial photos na pwedeng gamitin ay makikita ko na doon kung ano yung doon sa area kahit wala ako doon. Pwede ko siyang i-zoom in and zoom out dahil digital yung platform at dynamic siya. Hindi siya yung usual static maps na alam ko at ginagamit namin sa kurso.

Pagkatapos nun, kinuha ko siya at inaral ko yung GIS at remote sensing. Fortunately habang nagaaral at gumagawa ng thesis, kaugnay dun yung thesis ko at pagaaral ng course ko sa general na  — sa Quezon Avenue. Kasama yung mga dumagat at yung mga katrabaho ngayon. Yung una kong trabaho sa labas ng university, kasama sa datos para doon sa land rights advocacy ng mga indigenous communities sa Pilipinas. Doon ko nakita na, “Ay, powerful pala ang mapa na ito.” 

Kasi akala ko noon, kapirasong papel na nakikita ko sa textbook ay naglalaman lang siya ng pangalan ng mga lugar para alam ko kung nasaan sila at alam ko kung tama yung alam ko kung nasaan sila. Pero marami palang kwento yung mapa. 

Kinukwento sa katrabaho ko na kinukwento ng mapa yung karanasan ng mga tao since time imemmorial. Yung pagaalala nila tungkol sa kanilang mga ninuno at kung paano sila namuhay sa nakaraan na sinusubukan nila alalahanin lahat for the purpose of documenting their spatial knowledge.

We’re using 3D models at that time. Gumagawa kami ng 3D model sa pamamagitan ng sama-samang pagtutulungan ng komunidad. Kumbaga, nagdadala kami ng materyales sa community at dala-dala namin yung mapa na may contour lines at nagpapakita ng iba-ibang elevation. Gumagamit kami ng rubber soles. Kina-cut namin siya para maging hagdan na porma hanggan sa mabuo namin yung landscape.

Kasama ang community. Binubuo yan sa loob ng isa higit na linggo at sa mga bandang huling bahagi ay ang mga elders sa community ang maglalagay ng information tungkol sa kanilang paggamit ng kalikasan, iba-ibang land use sa kanilang lugar, at pagkatapos nito binabalik sa GIS yung mapa. Ibig sabihin, pinipicturan namin siya. Medyo technical na bahagi kasi dapat may mga technical requirements sa pagkuha ng mga pictures. Pagkatapos ay ipoproseso namin para sa huli, pwede namin isama sa mga existing maps ng lugar. Pwede siyang isama sa resulta ng analysis ng satellite image sa area na yun.

It’s like combining local knowledge at tsaka experience ng mga tao, yung kanilang memory at naaalala. Nakita ko na yung mapa talagang meron siyang oras. May timestamp siya in a sense na kung ano yung sa pagkakataon na yun yung makikita mo, pero it can become timeless. Kung mahalaga ang memorya ang pagalala doon sa gusto nating ipakita sa mapa, magiging makabuluhan siya kahit matagal nang panahon yung pinaguusapan nating laman ng mapa. Or kahit up to date na information ang kailangan natin.

Yun yung naging experience ko and work ko sa mapping until napunta rin ako sa education. Bumalik ako sa university para magturo and for the last 15 years ay nagtuturo ako sa university. Sa iba-ibang fields din or ibang university din akong pinagtuturuan like UP.

BRYAN:

Very interesting, Ony. Actually, from the idea of maps as a noun na un-tap mo siya into a process of mapping. That’s why I really appreciate yung pagshare mo ng experience na yun and insights and reflections sa kung paano yung mapa ay reflection din ng memories natin, especially nung mga communities.

Curious lang din ako sa proseso ng pinagdaanan mo, both doon sa technical work ng pagmamapa at doon sa paginvolve ng communities doon sa mapping practices na iyon. Ano yung mga suliranin na hinaharap mo o ng inyong grupo doon sa ganyang klase na engagement?

ONY:

Noon kasi, it was my first job, almost. Nagturo ako for a time and then I left the university and I went doing NGO work with Anthropology Watch. With my experiences with them, I’m very fortunate to map. Talagang kilala nila yung community, tinuturuan nila ako kung ano yung ethical considerations kapag nandun ka sa field at yun dapat yung inaasahan bilang bahagi ng organization na nagsusulong kasama ng mga indigenous communites, pagsusulong ng karapatan sa kanilang land rights at ancestral domain.

Dahil bata ako noon at hindi rin naman ako eksperto sa mapa, natutunan ako na sa community dapat ay malakas ka makiramdam. Ang ibig ko sabihin dun halimbawa, dahil apat na taon naman din ako nagaral ng mapa, alam ko na sa paggawa ng mapa ay dapat may legend, symbol, at kulay may rinerepresent na aspects of the real world or the environment.

Pero minsan, may mga standard symbols kasi tayo. Halimbawa, yung kulay ng residential areas ay dilaw kahit sa realidad, hindi naman sila dilaw. Yung commercial kulay pula, hindi naman sila sa totoong buhay kulay pula. Noon, tinatanggap ko yun as convention. Pero narealize ko while working with indigenous communities and indigenous people na meron din silang pagkukulay sa kanilang buhay. 

Meron din silang pagpapakahulugan sa kulay at hindi sa lahat ng pagkakataon, ang alam ko lahat na kulay na base sa standards ay magiging epektibo. Isa ding natutunan ko in my experience is dahil nagsisimula palang ako noon, minsan meron akong idea na magandang ilagay ko sa mapa kasi alam kong meron ganun sa lugar. Pero, maaari din na sabihin ng community na hindi namin kailangan siyang ipakita sa mapa at meron silang rason bakit. Kung gusto nila sabihin sa akin yun, ok lang. Kung hindi nila gustong sabihin dahil bahagi yun ng kultura nila at ayaw nilang sabihin, dapat ok lang din. Dapat intindihin ko siya.

Dahil bago akong researcher noon, bago sa akin yun na may ganito pala. There was this one experience in the community na nagkuwento sila sa sacradong lugar, and I made a very big mistake of hooking up a pushpin which was colored white and putting it on the marking in the 3D model kung ano yung sacred place. I was told na, “Hindi natin yan linalagyan ng ganyang markers.” Syempre natakot ako, sabi ko, “Nako sana hindi ko yan ginawa…mapapatawad ba ako ng community?” Mabait naman sila dahil naintindihan nila. 

Doon ko nakita na sa ganitong klaseng practice, mahalaga yung bahagi ng collaborators sa proseso ng pagmamapa. Hindi lang yung output yung mahalaga. Hindi ang mapa tungkol lang sa, “Sige imapa mo kung ano yung nandiyan. Dapat accurate, dapat up to the tiniest detail nandiyan yan sa mapa.” Hindi si pala ganun. 

Nakita ko na may nagdedesisyon kung paano lalabas yung mga information sa mapa. Mayroon dapat karapatan siyempre yung komunidad na siyang nagbibigay ng information na sabihin yung alin yung pwedeng ilagay sa mapa at hindi pwedeng ilagay yung mapa for some reason. Doon ko nakita na ninenegotiate ito among the community. 

Hindi lang isang tao yung nagdedesisyon or isang grupo. Ito ay dumadaan sa mahabang proseso dahil kadalasan ang elders ang naglalagay ng information at naisip ko noon, pwede din kaya yung kabataan ang maglagay ng information or yung outside ng community? 

Halimbawa, ako: may nakita akong isang interesting na landmark. Pwede parin kaya ilagay yan doon? Pero naturo ko rin sa proseso na kailangan linawin with the community yung mga ganung bagay. It all goes beyond yung learning ko na iyon. Fortunately, dahil ganyan ang pinagdaanan ko, kahit saang konteksto mapunta sa pagmamapa. Kahit sa urban community ka, kahit kasama mo yung mga youth, which I had the opportunity to do in my career, lagi siyang collective yung pagdedesisyon. Hindi lamang iisang tao or ako lang yung magsasabi. Lalong lalo hindi dapat ako yung nagsasabi kung ano yun. I can make suggestions, kung hindi tanggapin or sabihin nila na hindi angkop, dapat naiintindihan ko yun. At yun din ang tinuturo ko sa aking mga estudyante. Yung inaaaral natin sa libro, magandang malaman natin yan. Pero yung konteksto ng pagmamapa at yung position natin as researcher, nasaan ba tayo doon sa buong konteksto ng ginagawa natin? Laging tanungin din ang sarili, “Tama kaya ang aking paglalagay ng ganitong symbols? Akma kaya sa audience ko yung naisip kong expression at representation sa mapa?”

The things na syempre, kung hindi ka dadaan by experience, mahirap mo din talaga mukha yan sa libro or ikwento man sayo. Siguro sa experience lang din natin talaga makukuha.

Masaya din ako na through my work, makita ko din yung practices ng mga ibang mappers na gumagamit ng iba ibang medium. Halimbawa, meron kaming collaborators na mga artists. Halimbawa, I can mention one of our collaborators, si Sian Dayrit who is an artist who engages with the community in making sketch-maps. 

Ito ay very ethnographic yung approach na nandun talaga sa community, nagaanalyze ng secondary data para balikan kung ano yung kalagayan ng komunidad for a long time. Bumabalik din sa karanasan ng komunidad at tinatanong yung community kung ano yung kanilang karanasan. Halimbawa, challenges sa displacement, dispossession, at iba pang mga forms of struggles na meron din sa community. Maganda din na napapalabas din ito na naibabahagi din sa iba.

For instance, naexhibit din natin yung work niya sa Department of Geography. Iba din yung approach. Maaari may iba din akong kilalang artist na yung mapa na ginagawa nila ay hindi yung two-dimensional map na meron tayo din na nakikita natin sa libro. For example, my friend Farrah Manuel Velasco, she uses GPS when she travels using a bike and nirerecord niya from her track kung ano din yung feelings niya and emotions through the routes that she travels.

BRYAN:

Yung taga-Baguio diba?

ONY:

Yeah. Madami pong practices. Napakaraming practices kong nadiscover. Hindi lang siya yung mga technical na marunong kang mag-plot ng points dahil meron kang coordinates. Or marunong ka mag analyze at mag run ng algorithm mo para maiproseso at gawing landcover map ang isang satellite image. Andami palang engagements at possibilities, that’s what I’m saying pag dating sa mapa.

ONGGIE:

I’m curious about that. Would you say na nagbago na ba ang maps? Have maps changed or are we still using maps for the same purpose?

ONY:

Magandang tanong yan, Onggie. Kasi kung titingnan natin, halimbawa in my practice, I mostly use computer software, positioning devices like the GPS tulad ng binanggit ni Bry kanina. Pero if you think about it, at the end of the day, without these tools, my spatial recognition, my mental map is something that my ancestors are also capable of.

They have this with them already: spatial cognition, spatial knowledge. Arguably, yung spatial-mental schema natin…our ability to think about space and communicate our spatial knowledge…kung babalikan natin yung history niya, ay kahit yung mga hunter-gatherer ancestors natin ay meron na sila niyan.

Ibig sabihin, yung capability na ito has been with us for a long time and I’d also like to emphasize na yung practice of mapping pwede din siyang hindi makita na visually lang. Halimbawa, the way we mark our boundaries. Yung pagitan mo ng kapitbahay mo is one form of mapping because you’re dealing with space and identifying whose piece of land this is, associating rights with that, kung anumang porma ng rights ang posible. 

Gusto natin na palawakin din yung pagtingin sa mapa na posible na hindi papel, lapis, computer…kasi ang communities also draw their knowledge of space using their legends. Ang dumodrawing sa lupa or using sticks. For example, folks from the Marshall Islands in Micronesia may stick-charts na nagpapakita ng knowledge nila about waves and how their islands interact with waves. Ibig sabihin, itong knowledge na ito, matagal itong naipon sa community. They would still use the charts made up of sticks or stick-charts in order to pass on their knowledge to the younger generations para maipasa yung knowledge about their environment, essentially.

Maaari na may mga paraan kung papaano tayo nagmamapa na hindi natin tinitingnan before na, “Ay, oo nga ano mapa din ito.” Na kahit hindi sila two-dimensional na printout o kaya sa mobile phone matapos nimamark-mark mo. Ang maganda din dito ay dahil din sa teknolohiya, it broadened our opportunity to collaborate. I think that’s one of the very good advantages.

Halimbawa, pwedeng with the tools that we have now, digital na mga maps. Pwedeng gamitin yung cellphone mo to mark places and contribute data. That’s also one of the things that we do sa Saan Yan PH. This is a crowdsourcing tool where those who have community pantries or kung alam mo yung community pantry sa lugar mo, pwede ka sumagot sa form, input mo yung information at may instruction din how to get coordinates, and you have the community pantries map. Now, we have almost 890 points in the map and it will continue to grow so long as may mga dumadagdag ng community pantries. It’s an initiative that started this month or last month and it continues to add information.

Andami kasi nating paraan kung paano tayo magmamapa ngayon. Pero maganda din na hindi natin tinatanggal sa picture yung mga traditional forms of mapping. Yun din yung means ng iba na, halimbawa, pwede natin sabihin na na-eexclude yung mga nawawalan ng supply ng kuryente dahil hindi sila nakakagamit ng mga electronic devices.

But then, hindi lang yun yung means kaya gusto natin din na mas malawak yung paraan ng mga tao.

BRYAN:

Grabe, Ony, sobrang rich nung shinare mo na iyon sa akin. Tumatak din sa akin yung binanggit mo na cognitive maps or yung spatial aspect ng mapping ancestors natin. We have this kind of inherent capacity to orient ourselves sa mundo.

Napansin ko lang din, at sinabi din ni David Abram, isang cultural ecologist and philosopher na author ng Spell of the sensuous na libro na we have this inherent capacity to orient sa mundo. Pero with the GIS daw, we’re sort of synapse na doon sa smartphones natin and we no longer know how to orient ourselves and we no longer know where we are in the world.

Nabanggit mo yung idea of collective mapping with the…pwede ba silang tawagin na citizen-geographers or cartographers…on the idea ng community pantries na mapping. Yung mga ganung klase ba ng practices: mapping with indigenous peoples, mapping with various publics doon sa hindi masyadong pinned down na stories sa map, is this an idea of counter-mapping or counter-cartography?

Can you tell us more about this notion of counter-mapping?

ONY:

Naalala ko nung elementary tinitingnan ko yung mapa sa wall namin kasi sa subject na social studies, very important yung mapa. Naintindihan ko before, yung nakita kong mapa sa wall, siya yung standard. Authoritative siya. Hindi siya pwedeng magkamali, kasi kung magkakamali siya mali rin yung pinagaaralan.

However, na-conceal doon sa mga mapa na nakikita ko before, at least sa notion ko about maps before, na these are all selective information. Ibig sabihin, it’s the cartographer who decides kung sino ang ilalagay at anong klaseng information ang ilalagay doon. In the process, it’s selective, partial, and in some respects we can say that it’s partial and exclusionary representations kasi pinipili natin kung ano yung irerepresent mo dun sa espasyo na limitado din naman para maipakita natin yung gusto natin ipakita.

The process of exclusion can also be very political. It can be that in the process of not including some certain communities, people, pictures; the map is sort of silencing through absence some important peoples and communities na dapat may role din doon sa decision-making in that area. Paano kung hindi natin sila nakikita doon sa mapa?

Inspired also by the work of Bryan Harley and Keyes yung Deconstructing the Map, which emphasized that maps are rooted in and essential to power and that maps are not value-free images. Dahil hindi naman nga sila value-free, hindi mo pwedeng sabihin objective lang or authoritative. Nakita din natin kasi sa history: kolonyalismo where people have been forcefully displaced so as to establish territories in already-inhabited lands like what happened and what we see in colonial maps. 

We also see processes like instilling private control on communal communites and spaces, regulation of activites, legitimizing borders that didn’t even exist in the past. Ito, sabi ni Rita Lambert, this is the absence that silences those through what we call cartographic omission.

You’re intentionally removing people from the map to say na wala pang nandiyan, may pwede tayong gawin diyan. Pwede natin sakupin, pwede natin idevelop. At hindi lang yan nung colonial times nangyayari. Even now, we see attempts by corporate interests, for example, to develop areas as if walang tao or as if walang sakahan doon dati. This is the idea of counter-mapping.

If we’re saying that maps are oppressive, then maps can also be emancipatory. Ibig sabihin, pwede rin natin gamitin ang mapa to assert our rights, our positions, and that we exist. That we have been here for a long time. Sometimes, makikita natin may mga hindi lang naman geographic imaginaries, hindi lang yung meron sa present or past yung pwede. 

For example, yung mga brochures na nakikita natin sa malls na, “Uy, idedevelop yung area na ito.” Parang nawawalan na ng character yung dati sa paraan ng pagdedevelop ng bago. Maari sa prosesong ito, may mga na didispossess tayo na communities.

Through counter-mapping and ways by which we can counter these conventions on the map na kung ano yung makita mong map; halimbawa, yung gawa ng isang estado, gawa ng isang makapangyarihang corporate interest, yun na yung tatanggapin nating mapa kasi pwede natin siyang i-counter by also revealing our experiences in communities. In the process, claiming the rights that we have for our own communities and also questioning ano ba yung legitimacy at sino ba yung nagtatakda ng legitimacy? Ano yung role ng local communities in that process?

Sa practice ng profession ko, what’s very important is being able to critically reflect on the process of mapping. Na hindi lang tayo nakatingin sa kung maganda yung mapa, tama or accurate yung information, but also be concerned with who was involved in the process of creating the map. Is this a participatory process? Is this inclusive? These kinds of questions.

For a very long time, yung tradition ng mapa are very exclusive sa royalties ng mga may resources. Kaya nga tayo nasakop, hindi ba?

So ito na yung panahon, especially with technology where madali na magshare and contribute ng information, if we push for an inclusive participatory process that is also critical of who is being involved, whose voices are being heard…mas magiging makapalaya yung proseso ng pagmamapa natin.

ONGGIE:

Para sa akin, ang ganda nung shinare mo, Ony. I’ve always looked as maps as more or less representation ng information na, “Ok, ito yung nalalaman natin sa area na iyan. Ito yung pangalan, ito yung hugis, ito yung boundary.”

Pero tama ka, maaring hindi naitatanong ng gumuhit at gumawa ng mapa na iyon kung tama ba yung pagka-situate niya. Tinanong ba niya yung mga taga-roon? Or baka dahil gumawa siya ng mapa na parang walang tao roon or walang bahay o puno doon, bakante lang siya at walang tao.

Yung counter-mapping ba, is it a way to enhance maps or is it a way to…I like yung word mo na “emancipatory” din yung maps? What does counter-mapping hope to achieve in the end?

ONY:

Hindi ko rin naman sariling salita yung mga words, yung mga words na ginagamit natin sa ngayon. We also got it from, say for example, Nancy Peluso, who at that time in 1995 working in Indonesia with Indigenous communities na hindi rin pinapakita sa mapa yung kanilang existence. Very similar experience din dito sa Pilipinas. It confronts a lot of the things we used to think ay ganoon. Hegemonic. For example, tinatangap nga lang natin ang mapa sa kung ano pinapakita before. 

So counter-mapping opens this opportunity for alternative realities or alternative worldviews. Pero sympre we don’t want to see it na parang alternative lamang talaga sila. What’s interesting also is because halimbawa, marami nang open source and tools. We’re always going for open data sharing. Mas malawak ang opportunity for local communities to engage in the process of mapping. 

Fortunately, marami tayong mga partner NGOs and even LGUs, mga government offices din mismo na dapat maging consultative yung proseso ng generate ng spatial information. Especially if it has something to do with development planning in the area. Also kung meron mga panibagong iintroduce na infrastructural projects. Sadly, hindi ito ang sitwasyon if we look it at a national scale. Pero nakikita naman natin at a a lower scale. For example, for decision making. Halimbawa sa mga barangay, sa mga LGUs. Marami na rin sa mga ganitong track or trajectory. It really wants to make the process inclusive and participatory. 

Counter-mapping and counter-cartography matter because the idea is to collectively have this effort to question. To somehow challenge the balance of power para yung mga hindi natin napapansin or pwede rin intentionally nineglect natin ang marginalized communities. Mailagay din natin sa usapin at decision making.

BRYAN:

It feels like parang gusto ko balikan ulit yung recording yung mga shinare na insights ni Ony, Onggie kasi sobrang rich talaga.

Nabangit mo Ony na source ng mga tools and data. Ito ba yung ilan sa mga elements na nakikita mo siguro sa future ng maps or mapping? Ano yung mga sort of elements na nakikita mo going back doon sa experience mo before yung unang experience mo sa mapping and then now that you’re teaching students in the Department of Geography. Ano yung sort of elements na nakikita mo na pwede ma-envision na future sa maps and mapping?

ONY:

Magandang tanong yan, Bryan. Merong dalawang puntos na gusto ko banggitin tungkol diyan. 

Unang-una, yung capability to use multiple media so that static maps we used to know before are now interactive, dynamic. Hindi na siya flat. Hindi na flat ang representation nung mga maps. It can even be 3D ang maps. Meron din tayong mga tinatawag na mapa na sensory maps. Halimbawa, in my class. How do I teach them, yung representation ng points, lines, and polygons. Which is what we usually use when we deal with GIS mapping as a means of representing spatial entities. So ang ginagawa ko is gumagamit kami ng mga web maps. Most of these are free. You can publicly share the data you would upload and so students can actually provide hyperlinks. Yung mga videos, mga audio. So yung experience ng viewer, mas na-eenhance pa and I think this is a very good opportunity because we all know na the closer the maps become to our lived spaces, mas nakaka-evoke siya ng emotions. Mas naalala natin, mas may recall tayo of the events, of the processes that’s being presented in the map. 

It opens up a lot of opportunities and possibilities for mapping. Balikan ko yung about sensory maps. If I may describe, si Kate MacLean in 2013, she published a series of maps, smell scape maps. So essentially, sa New York, sa Scotland, and sa Rhode Island, yung iba’t ibang lugar dito, simila muna siya by alamin kung ano yung predominant or distinct odor or smells or scents. And then also started asking people around kung ano inaamoy nila and then she created maps that represent kung ano yung makikita mo smells from a particular source. So instead na makikita sa porma ng landscape, ang porma ng landscape is defined by the scent and the odor. 

For me, this is very important kasi ang nakikita kong application sa kanya is halimbawa. Some of the hazards that we face, you can smell it first before you see it. Ako I live along the Taytay bridge. So pagnakaamoy ako ng sulfur diyan, ah nako alerto na kami. Di mo nakikita pero naamoy mo siya. So imagine if we can have a map in the community na nakalagay yung date kung usually kailan lumalabas yun asupre, kung may ganitong patterns. So very helpful siya when it comes to responding to hazards and in fact even sa Disaster Risk and Reduction, I think that’s very useful. So if you have a smell scape in your community, pwede mo na ma-identify ang siguro ang air quality dito since lagi mausok dito dahil sa mga sasakyan. 

Pag very visual yung presentation mo na ganoon, imagine yung how you can be educated na “ay nako ito malapit ang portion na ito sa school, pag nakita ko yung mapa na medyo may ganitong associated with air pollution or air quality, sana paglaki ko di na ganito, sana mag-iba itong mapa in the future.” So it encourages since you can see the patterns, nakikita mo and naamoy mo. So mas malaki ang impact. 

BRYAN:

Actually na-excite ako noong binanggit mo yung sa sensory maps, Ony. Kasi naging inspirasyon ko rin si Kate MaCLean, gumawa akong ng smellscape map. Ka-email ko siya at nag-send ako sa kanya ng isang map na ginawa ko sa Escolta tapos naisip ko noon, how do we re-discover a place na familiar tayo using other senses? 

Noong nandoon ako, sobrang may description siya parang tied doon sa kung papaano natin i-describe yung smell. Kasi nag-intermingle na yung amoy ng usok mula doon sa nagluluto ng Chinese restaurant sa Escolta. Tapos meron sobrang lakas na amoy ng bulaklak sa bagong bukas na furniture shop. Tapos parang na-imagine ko noon, ito ba yung amoy ng gentrification sa isang siyudad? Medyo napapaisip tayo sa mga ganoon. So I think yung attunement din doon sa senses natin on how we create or map yung surroundings natin ay very important. 

ONGGIE:

It seems na yung maps, the way you guys talk about it…sensory talaga siya, so hindi lang siya eyes, hindi lang siya ears, and nose. What other perspectives can we find in a map? Kanina binabangit mo, Ony na it’s political, and I agree. It’s selective and it’s partial. So what other perspectives are there in a map? What should we be aware of in a map? 

ONY:

Firstly, I teach my students na you don’t look at a map as if nobody created that or lumitaw na lang siya. You always ask question na well okay, I can read this map, the things are legible here. But what meanings can I associate with this map? Do I relate with what it wants to tell me? 

First and foremost, if I can relate more to it, I have a better recall. The purpose of the map also at the end is for people to act on the information that you provided them. Yun talaga yung ideal goal naman, why you’re creating your map. So in terms of perspectives, first and foremost is to be critical and think about the process on which the map is created. What is it trying to show or tell me because maps can be scientific, they can serve practical purposes. Depende yan sa kung papaano natin gagamitin and how we interact with it. 

Sometimes, especially the nature of the map is very political, meron din mga intentions na kung bakit yun lang nakikita mo at meron na hindi ka nakikita sa map. So I always tell them also na you look out for the things that you don’t see. Hindi lang kung ano nakikita mo, especially if you know that map is a contested space for example. You know na may contestations doon sa area na yun. So you’ll probably be thinking, sino ba nag-publish nitong mapa, paano siya ginawa, at para kanino siya most especially. 

Because I’m teaching cartography and the idea is by the end of the sem, they know how to create maps. But they also have to think about engaging yourself in the process of reflection. Thinking of whether, did I say it right with my maps? Who will I show it to? Who will be able to comment on it? Because the process of mapping does not end when you give your data and when you show it to your audience. There should be a feedback mechanism. And that feedback mechanism, I should also be open to criticism. 

That’s also sometimes tricky kasi tama ba tangalin ko pag sinabi tangalin? Noong batang researcher ako, lagi kong tanong yan. Yung parang jusko na baka magalit yung authorities, ganyan, yung communities kasi supposedly hindi maganda ito tignan pero nandito siya sa data. So you have that dilemma, and you face that kind of tension as a researcher. But that’s part of the process, kaya nga kailangang may foresight ka. You know how to balance interests, and to also acknowledge your position in the process kasi maraming mga context, political, economic, personal din sometimes. 

These are the things na we need to acknowledge and to think about, and to be able to decide. Sometimes, we need to ask other people and that’s part of the process, to consult your colleagues, consult others who were in the same situation. Diyan tayo natututo. That’s the beauty of the whole process of knowing how to map, and understanding what it takes to create a map. And also being open to changes that will happen once your map goes out to the public because sometimes ano nga yung security issues din with the mappers, meron din talaga mga ganoon sa proseso 

So yun, those are the things that I would say to someone who is beginning with maps…whether it’s for your personal purpose…it’s unlikely for you to create a map just for yourself. You’re always creating a map for somebody else. Probably, make it your message. Even if you’re just beginning, you have to think about those things that I’ve mentioned.

BRYAN:

Salamat, Ony, doon sa interesting insights na yun that are all very important. Napapaisip din tuloy ako kung, with all the practices, opportunities for mapping new meanings, feeling ko andami pang parts ng mundo na very unmapped. Na kailangan siguro natin imap or iremap in a way.

Yung mga binanggit mo, yun yung mga approaches kung paano natin titingnan yung mga bagay na hindi natin explicitly nakikita. Ano yung mga kwento or subjectivities na nandoon sa specific na lugar in relation to ourselves, in relation to the people around us, in relation to nature?

Galing.

ONGGIE:

Siguro, ako, just a couple of questions nalang related in particular sa karanasan ni Ony on yung hindi mo pwedeng ilagay sa mapa. Again, ang common misinformation ko ay everything is presented there. It seems that there are things that are, in fact, not mappable.

So how do we approach those? Paano yung hindi natin pwedeng maisamapa? Or yung mga lugar na off the map, how do we approach those?

ONY:

I think understanding that mapping is a process that may continue long after the map has been produced and shown. Because people can always contest information, right? 

We’ve seen that in the Philippines, when it comes to using maps to contest claims. Like, for instance, knowing that you should understand that in the process of mapping, even if you say it’s participatory or inclusive, there are also limitations in the way that you map. In projects, may limitation ka of time, resources.

When it comes to deciding on the things that you can map or you cannot map, from the beginning it has to be consulted and discussed with those who are involved in the process of mapping and those who will provide the information. First and foremost, those who provide the information are also stakeholders of the information. So we always have to remember that. Siguro pwede ko rin irelate dun sa question of: “When are somethings really not meant to be mapped?”

If you look at it in a more technical perspective, ang sinasagot ko sa mga estudyante ko diyan is the first assumption when you create a map, is that you can see variation in space. The assumption is that you want to show a map is that you know or this particular event, process, features…they vary across a particular space. Otherwise, you don’t map them. Kung hindi mo naman makikita yung variation across space, bakit mo pa siya imamapa? Oftentimes, yun yung mga concerns ng students.

There’s also the concern about mismatch in scale. Halimbawa, your question is the impact…sa ibang situations sometimes you just leave some things unmapped or hindi mo kaya gawin yung mapping. For example, your question concerns flooding in a particular watershed but you don’t have the data with the granularity or the resolution for that kind of analysis, so definitely there’s a limitation to your mapping.

As students and researchers, we’re quite limited din in relation to that because resources are also limited. So even if you wanted to do some level of analysis to a particular place or phenomenon, hindi siya pwede or hindi natin siya magawa with the available resources that we have at the present.

When we speak of the things that will remain to be unmapped, unless of course we have means to address the challenges to be able to map them. I think yun yung mga iba-ibang scenarios in relation to that question. So that might concern security as well, because contested things are very sensitive issues. Tingnan niyo yung Google Earth, hindi tayo makakakita ng map ng Gaza. 2016 pa yung image na nandun, ba’t ganun?

May rason. Well, syempre parang bakit dinedeprive sa akin yung information na yun, I also want to know. The question na yun, you have Google Earth and makikita mo yung bahay ng kaklase mo dati. Parang masasabi mo na, “Ay, di ko naman sinabi na kailangan kita yung bahay ko. Paano ko icocontest yung ganun, diba?” Andiyan na yung data, yung information.

I think with the direction of mapping, these are also the things that we need to think about and talk about. It might have a very big implication on the communities on the ground. Halimbawa, pag dadaan yung mga nagmamapa ng Google Earth or Google Maps, makikita mo dadaan. Iniisip mo agad, “Hala makikita yung harap ng bahay namin. Pangalan ng tindahan sa tapat.” Mga ganyan. Nasaan ka doon? Can you argue against it? Hindi ko maisasagot, but these are valid concerns that I’m trying to say and security is also one valid concern.

The gray area between what’s private and what’s not, especially with the technology that we have nowadays, is also something that we should be talking about. Kasi, kung hindi yan paguusapan ng magkakasama, medyo mahirap din syempre icounter yung mga ganung tendencies.

ONGGIE:

Bry, ikaw? May gusto ka pang itanong kay Ony?

BRYAN:

Ako, wala na siguro. Mas reflections nalang doon sa mga narinig ko kay Ony. Sobrang rich nung pagshashare niya ng experience at nung insights niya. Siguro yung sa akin lang para sa episode natin na maps and mapping, natutunan ko yung na maps are pwedeng utilitarian at pwedeng iserve yung purpose niya sa atin. But there are also maps na pwedeng poetic in a sense, that can go beyond yung usual na 2D representation. There are maps within our cognitive ability and there are maps that can be done as a collective practice rin.

Mapping is a process of reflection, of attunement, of acknowledging subjectivities. Gusto ko rin yung sinabi ni Ony na mapping practices can be oppressive, but it can also be emancipatory. I think that’s very powerful; that we can map and counter-map and maps can be done, undone, and redone.

It’s like an ongoing evolutionary process as well for me.

ONGGIE:

Ako rin, many reflections from this podcast. I’ve always thought of maps in relation to usual orientation na North, South, East, West. Parang ganun parati yun. As I learn now, and thank you for this Ony, it’s in relation to place of course; but yung place mo within the landscape, within the country, within contested space, within a resource. Yun yung unang relation nung mapa.

The second, I like this: yung time. May maps na timeless, may maps na time-bound. I agree na it’s a representation sometimes of what you think of or what you understand now. I love yung sinasabi mo na maps can be a continuing interrogation. Hindi siya one-time na, “Ayan na mapa na natin ang lugar na yan. Tapos na.” You rewrite eh.

And then last, yung importance ng people. Nandun yung culture, belief, practice. It’s also about yung relationship ng maps to people, to time and place. You can map only based on what you know from others and what you consult from others. Yun nga, I understand that it gets richer if you consult people and ask if they put the same value doon sa map na ginawa.

Inisip ko tuloy, ano kaya yung representation ng map? Ako, hindi ako mahilig gumamit ng map sa cellphone. When I travel, naghahanap parin ako ng mapa, yung paper. Kumuha parin ako niyan. 

Thinking about it now, the question now is: “So what do those maps represent?” Do they represent yung waypoints for the traveler? Like, “Ok itong kalye na ito,” those waypoints? Is it yung aspiration? I also look at a map kasi gusto ko marating itong magandang protected area na ito or itong isolated na beach na ito. So you also look at it na perhaps it’s also the map-viewer or map-reader’s aspiration. 

Information, of course. Here, I think one of the things that I really appreciate sa conversation natin with Ony is that maps seem to represent not just what we know, but also what we do not know. I guess that’s always been yung lens ko before that this is the extent of what we know, kaya tayo may mapa. That’s why I’d always be curious about those parts of the map na may mga pangalan.

I suppose now, it’s more interesting to look at the areas of the map that aren’t named, that are blank. Or yung mga old maps, yung may “Here be dragons.” Yung mga lugar na may, “Here be dragons.” Ang rich ng mga insights that I got from Ony.

Isa lang siguro ang tanong ko. Hindi ito seryoso, pero dahil wala tayong word for maps in Tagalog, “mapa” yung Tagalog diba? Yun kaya yung dahilan kung bakit parati tayong ligaw? Dahil wala tayong mapa? Yun yung mga insights ko ngayon, Bry.

BRYAN:

May isang term na natutunan ko recently. Yung “Himaton” na term or yung pagbibigay direksyon papunta sa isang lugar. Pero iba yun sa sinasabi mo na Tagalog talaga ng maps eh. Mukhang “mapa” talaga eh.

ONGGIE:

Yun nga, tingin ko, what we learn for now is there’s so much to be learned as well in mapping despite the fact na marami na tayong advancements in technology and it seems like we have a lot more knowledge.

BRYAN:

Thanks again, Prof Ony. Grabe, sobrang hindi ko napansin yung oras. Ang saya, ang sarap makinig sa inyo Ma’am Ony.

ONGGIE:

Salamat!

ONY:

Maraming salamat sa Forest Foundation Philippines, Bryan and Onggie for the opportunity to share. I think this is the first time din kasi na nakapagkwento ako so sorry dahil ang dami kong sinasabi! I was really happy with the chance to be able to share this with you and with the audience.

BRYAN:

Thank you for listening to this episode. Gubatbp. and Forest Foundation would like to thank Ony Martinez for sharing her story of mapping practices and counter-mapping in the Philippines. 

To see more of Prof Ony’s work and other citizen mapping efforts in the country, please check out Saan Yan PH on Facebook, it’s a volunteer group on mapping community pantries in the country; the Mental Health Awhereness Project also on Facebook; the Ministry of Mapping group run by geospatial workers at @mappingministry on Twitter; and lastly, MapBeks, that can be found on mapbeks.org, an online community of volunteers advocating for LGBTQI+ representation and inclusion in various mapping efforts like OpenStreeMap.

We’d also like to thank our featured musician for this episode, “Jai.”—a band that defines their music as “modern kundiman and rock.” The group is made up of members Doc Estabillo, Nestor Los Anes, Jomst Casidsid, and Jai Berrientos.

The song that was played was “Kung Maihahambing Kita” from their album, “Sisidlan” and it’s available on Spotify.

At www.gubatbp.forestfoundation.ph, you can browse through our maps featured on each episode, and resource materials that you can read and check out after listening to our episodes. 

Note: This transcript has been edited for brevity and clarity.